Backbone and ember
completely different philosophies. In this post, I'll compare the two, both
from a practical and philosophical perspective. I'll defer to real world
experience with Backbone and SproutCore (Ember's predecessor), as well as
basic experiments with Ember (full disclosure: haven't built a large Ember app
yet). I'll also supplement claims with quotes from a fantastic conversation
from Freenode #documentcloud on February 3rd, 2011. For quote
wycats is Yehuda Katz, one of the lead developers on Ember, and
jashkenas is Jeremy Ashkenas, one of the lead developers on Backbone.
Before I go into too much detail, it's pretty clear that both frameworks have the same goal: to help developers build apps.
1:09 PM wycats backbone apps are apps
So we have a roughly apples-to-apples comparison. Let me dive in and talk about some philosophical differences:
Backbone at a glance
Backbone is a minimalist framework that builds on top of ideas from jQuery to give some structure to web applications. It introduces concepts of views, models, a restful sync interface, routers, etc, in surprisingly little code. Backbone is the darling of microframework lovers, who highly value small framework size and don't want to commit to a single "full stack" solution.
Backbone is incredibly flexible, and doesn't impose how your views and models should actually interact. The main benefit is that it adds some structure to the app and provides convenient ways of listening to DOM events and turning them into application events.
1:15 PM wycats backbone is 600loc
1:16 PM wycats "here's how you should think about your app structure"
Since Backbone is so small, it leaves a lot of decisions up to the developer. This is both a blessing (flexibility, works for me, etc) and a curse, since support for many things is missing.
12:32 PM wycats jashkenas: backbone is 600 lines of code
12:32 PM wycats jashkenas: the idea that there are things missing in it that are common should not be controversial
Ember at a glance
Ember has a very different history. It's an evolution of SproutCore, which is a complete web application solution. Ember takes the core parts of SproutCore - two-way data binding, computed properties, tight template integration, and strips the rest off into sub-modules. Things that come in module format are a data serialization layer (via data), routing (via routes). Ember's out of the box functionality is actually smaller than Backbone's, but it provides a higher level abstraction.
I used SproutCore back in 2008 while working as an engineer on iWork.com. It was a SproutCore pre-1.0 release, and things were a bit rough. Ember seems to have come clean in many ways, presenting a more consistent template data binding solution via Handlebars, and being a lot less monolithic SproutCore once was.
Ember aims to provide a full solution in an opinionated way. Thus, to get the most of the framework, developers must do things in a certain style. While you're not forced to use Handlebars, it's the only way to get some of the compelling features the framework provides (eg. for two-way data binding). Many of the auxillary modules such as ember-data are designed to fit will into the existing structure of the framework.
1:22 PM wycats tbranyen: ember is an end-to-end framework built on top of more modular components
There is a sentiment from many people, including Backbone's founder that much of what Ember provides is over-engineered:
12:28 PM jashkenas It's Backbone's take that Ember's more complex data binding model, intermediate controllers, run loop etc. ... are all interesting approaches, but are not usually helpful in building a real site.
12:30 PM jashkenas wycats: and I find quite the opposite -- self-selecting sample pools, as you'd expect.
So to summarize at a high level, there are two camps (and excuse me while I generalize a lot).
Software Engineers that are used to a deep abstraction layer and a full service stack. These people are probably coming from native app development and want to write very complex applications on the web.
Basically, these two developers have different needs, come from different programming cultures, and are maybe even writing different applications.
12:31 PM wycats jashkenas: so then it's fair to say that for some people, Ember's approach is overkill
Andrew says it best:
12:36 PM andrewdeandrade It's really all about values. Occasionally I get frustrated by things backbone.js doesn't do and occasionally I get frustrated by things rails does that are hard to undo. My personal preference is to have a framework not do something and implement it myself than have a framework do something and figure out how to do the opposite. That's me. I know people who feel differently
A more detailed comparison
After engineering with SproutCore, writing an app with Backbone, and writing small amounts of Ember (mostly samples to get a feel for data bindings, etc), I've got some sense of the issues that you will run into when developing a moderately complex app. I'll go over some, and supplement them with quotes from framework authors.
1:28 PM wycats jashkenas: do you disagree that the pattern "listen for these properties, and when any of them changes, trigger observers" is very common?
1:26 PM jashkenas that's correct -- you listen for changes to the source data and render computed values. not hard.
1:26 PM wycats jashkenas: yes… a pattern that happens sufficiently often that it's good to abstract
In general, Ember seeks to find common problems that developers face, and solve them in an opinionated way. Backbone, on the other hand, leaves it to developers solve their own problems in the way that works for them.
While Ember in theory lets you pick which templating engine to use, you lose a lot of benefits if you're not using Handlebars.
1:29 PM jashkenas forcing your users to use logic-less templates is incredibly constraining.
1:30 PM tomdale jashkenas: ember supports any templating language you'd like. you just don't get auto-updating
1:30 PM jashkenas right, exactly.
In practice, my last project used Mustache because it was logic-less. Such templating engines are my preference, and I'm happy to be constrained to a pretty good templating system if that means access to powerful features, cleaner application code and less boilerplate.
I don't think that Ember should be toting choice of template as a big benefit. Like any application framework, Ember is a contract between developer and framework author. You write in our style and we'll give you powerful features. In an ideal world, this lets developers focus on their app instead of dealing with middleware.
view decomposition is one of the first tasks a front end developer faces. They need to decide which parts of their app will be implemented with what view. Should each list item be its own view? Should the list be a single monolithic view?
In my experience writing Backbone apps, views are very primitive and tend to cause issues. There's no support for any sort of view nesting, which is totally critical for large applications with complex UIs. In contrast, Ember provides an easy way of nesting views inside one another.
The other thing you'll notice with Backbone is that there's a lot of micro-management required when building Backbone views. They need to be properly cleaned up by hand, otherwise you end up with zombie views bound to events, or events that don't fire at all.
Some backbone projects, such as the layout manager, aim to remedy some of these limitations by creating a Layout abstraction, that allows nested views and handles a lot of the rendering. This is a very interesting project, but I haven't tried it yet.
Ember is a traditional MVC framework, where it's clear which parts are the view, the controller and the model. Backbone on the other hand, is explicitly not an MVC. It never even claims to be!
In fact, if you read the main page, you'll notice that there's no mention of controllers anywhere. Don't get me wrong: Backbone still gives your applications structure, but has no opinion on the gluing layer between data and presentation. I think Backbone once had controllers, but they were renamed to routers, designed primarily for handling URLs and history/pushState.
In my experience, there's very much a need for a controller when writing even moderately complex apps. You're presented with several options:
- Write controller code in views
- Write controller code in models
- Write controller code in a router
- Write your own controller infrastructure
If you care about separation of concerns, none of these options are really acceptable.
Data and servers
Backbone packs a huge punch in a small package. It comes with
Backbone.sync, which lets you fully customize how you want to interact
with the server.
Following the CRUD pattern, Backbone lets you specify the response format of an Read, but unfortunately doesn't allow you to fully customize how you would like to serialize Create and Update and Delete payloads for calling your server-side API. For my last project, I ended up just completely redefining Backbone.sync, which is very powerful, but I needed to write a lot of boilerplate to make it work reasonably.
The problem with Backbone's approach is that it doesn't separate two parts of data stores: internal collection management and the interface with the backend API.
Ember data, on the other hand, has the concept of API adapters, which let you specify the interface the server. Additionally it has a DataStore model. I haven't experimented with this in Ember yet, but SproutCore's version of this worked quite well.
When I worked on iWork.com, we definitely had some issues with SproutCore performance for large amounts of data. The problem was that we couldn't really optimize our code because we were locked into the way SproutCore does things, so our way forward was to patch SproutCore itself to address some of the performance issues, or break out of the framework and implement the performance intensive part manually.
Jeremy voices this concern here:
1:33 PM jashkenas finally, and perhaps most importantly, embers tight coupling of handlebars-ui-with-very-specific-bindings-to-ember-models is trouble, performance-wise. You can't build the really intensive parts of your UI with that level of binding / dom tweaking.
And I agree with him. It's very legitimate concern for large apps, and Yehuda didn't answer adequately in my opinion.
1:34 PM wycats jashkenas: exposing the performance question to the user is trouble
1:34 PM wycats over the long haul Ember will be able to heuristically decide how bulky to update
1:34 PM jashkenas sufficiently smart compiler, eh?
1:34 PM wycats jashkenas: :P
I'm a bit concerned about this point and would love to hear a less handwavy answer from Yehuda.
Final thoughts (Backbone)
My conclusion from writing an app with Backbone, and attending a Bocoup training workshop, is that Backbone by itself is not sufficient for building complex web apps. You will invariably go one of two directions:
- Engineer a lot of stuff on top of it, or
- Use existing Backbone plugins of various maturity and hope they work well together.
In practice, it's very difficult to remain productive if you're writing both an app and a framework at the same time. Unfortunately this was my tendency when using Backbone. I hate reinventing the wheel. Especially if it's kind of lopsided.
That said, Backbone is fantastic for mid-to-low complexity applications that want to maintain structured code.
Final thoughts (Ember)
Ember, on the other hand, forces you into its way of doing things. This is a framework with opinions that gives you less flexibility. However, if you grit your teeth a little bit and buy in, you'll be exposed to a well thought out set of libraries that work well together.
I really like the features Ember offers, and its philosophy of finding common problems developers will face and solving them. One thing I anticipate is that many of the non-core Ember modules are immature. However, just having these modules that are designed to work together is a boon for serious application developers.
I'm still concerned that Ember applications may be stuck if dealing with particularly hairy custom view situations, or large amounts of data, but I'll have a better sense of the limitations soon.